audio (after shield is repaired and things are settling down at the end of the area)

[coffinturk]

[ Vincent isn't one to mince words. The message is relatively short and precise given its content. ]

We are all changing.

[ Yes. That is correct, Valentine. ]

The marks that appear are connected. But the changes are different even when two people seem to be becoming the same type of monster.

Contact me with the changes you are experiencing and the sigil's appearance. I will make a record.

Deliver it however you wish. Your thoughts on the changes are welcome.

Comments

it’s showtime!! aka time to be a troll } text

[phantomshow]

You’re assuming everyone is changing.

likewise a switch to text

[coffinturk]

Yes.

[ Is the simple answer because it's a silly thing to bring up? No. But it's all he gives Ren. Well, Vincent's earlier terse words suggest he's not one to speak much. Perhaps even less in text. ]

[phantomshow]

[Fair enough, Ren’s similar enough in that respect, at least until he’s warmed up to and made a bond with people.]

But you don’t know that for sure.

[coffinturk]

[ The next answer comes with a few more words. ]

Working under the presumption everyone will change is good sense. Recording the changes, permanent or not, even more.

[ The literal answers may not have the nuance of emotion which an audio transmission would give. What follows could be considered a sign of impatience. ]

Do you have a criticism? Speak it.

[phantomshow]

Presumptions aren’t good sense if they’re wrong.

[Yeah, he has a few criticisms. Any kind of record being kept on him is a bit personal for Ren, given the fact that his own record of conviction for a crime he didn’t commit has followed him like his own shadow for the past year.]

No criticism. Just wondering why you think it’s such a good idea to keep a registry.

[And because Ren can’t help poking, he adds:]

Assuming it’s criticism when people are just asking questions looks pretty defensive, you know. Some people might find that suspicious.

omg weerds from vincent

[coffinturk]

I only asked if you had criticisms. You expressed it.

[ The hedging questions are one thing. But what else is 'presumptions aren't good sense if they're wrong' directly after Vincent stated he is working with the presumption that everyone will change'?

But... registry? A term with a definition that might have just given Vincent an actual clue as to what one of the core issues Ren might have. ]

A record of changes serves a few purposes. Each sigil is a type of grouping. There's signs that even when two people seem to become the same type of monster, their traits can be different. Memory can change. People disappear. So that's another purpose for this. Temporary transformations, the land they're encountered in. The effects of Moon Warp. It's worth recording.

[ It seems the summary of examples will end there, but it's obviously far from inclusive. ]

The information about the changes, temporary or not, is important. I don't care if the submissions are anonymous. Only that they're accurate and up to date. Names might be useful to verify facts. But not a priority.

[ And if there's a choice between the information of the changes and the identity of the person they belong to, guess which one Vincent finds is the priority to obtain. ]

A presumption born of several month's observation is reasonable. No one has yet been free of some change or being marked. If that turns out to be wrong, then it will be important to find out why there are exceptions.

[ The answer was a while in coming. But that much 'talk' from someone like Vincent? Maybe it's reasonable to expect that. ]

[phantomshow]

[As reluctant as Ren is to back down from arguing against a systematic record being kept, Vincent’s explanation does make sense. The information about memories changing is new to Ren, and it makes his stomach twist into uncomfortable knots.

Changing memories is what Maruki did with his “ideal” version of reality, giving his friends what he believed would “save” them from a life of pain. Ren remembers how much it hurt Futaba to have her mother returned to her and then cruelly ripped away all over again. Same for Haru and Makoto and their respective fathers.

And Ren hates that he can’t forget how much those “ideal” realities created for his friends hurt him because he wasn’t part of them. He’d simply been left behind once he was no longer needed, and months later, it still stung. Akechi was the only one who hadn’t forgotten about him.]

How do we know you can be trusted? Someone could do a lot of damage with that much information.

[coffinturk]

[ Fortunately, Vincent is only talking about how memories can be muddied with the passage of time. Details aren't as crisp. That's the nature of most human minds.

If there's other types of muddling, he's yet to experience or witness it. ]

You don't.

[ What, thought he was going to defend himself? ]

My name is Vincent Valentine. I take care of the firearms and ammunition I or others who are willing to pass to me scavenge. The record will be placed in the Convoy's database. Names can be omitted on request. Sigils can be generalized.

[ Does he expect that to be enough? Also no. But his identity is now clear. And it would be hard to stand against the entire Convoy if he chose to misuse the information. ]

Whether or not you provide information is your choice.

[phantomshow]

[It seems contradictory to the wariness Ren has so far expressed, but he respects Vincent’s answer a lot - more so than if he’d tried to argue for his trustworthiness. It signals an understanding of the world’s variability, an acknowledgment of the myriad shades of grey between the comparatively rare specks of black and white.]

OK. I’ll consider it.

[If he’s trusted enough by the community to handle firearms, that could be another point in his favor. Ren wouldn’t mind having that particular tool back in his belt, either. But he wants to consult with Akechi first before making a decision.]

If someone wanted to talk to you in person, where would they find you?

[coffinturk]

[ It's all circumstance. But Vincent was clearly honest about it; he keeps the firearms he salvages and the ones people are willing to leave in his care. This is largely because some see the sense in his expertise to make certain the weapons are safe to use and what caliber the ammo itself is. It's not all factory stamped.

He also has offered reasonable conditions to teaching proper use of such weapons.

As for the rest? Vincent is a former assassin. He knows the grey all too well. ]

The trailer with the shop boots. I'm available there from one hour after the Convoy stops for the night for a span of two hours barring emergencies.

[ Ren might have seen the sign. ]

[phantomshow]

[Ah yes, that sign. Ren noted it briefly but didn’t investigate further, deciding to prioritize his time on fishing to help stock the Convoy’s food stores. But now that he has connected the dots, he’ll likely pay Vincent a visit soon enough.]

If I stop by I’ll let you know.

[And Ren feels like he should give Vincent something in return for his transparency. A show of good faith, if nothing else.]

I haven’t been here long enough to have anything change permanently. But I can tell you my thoughts on the changes - whoever is responsible needs to face justice for what they’ve done.

[firstsoldier]

I sincerely hope you remain the lone exception. This is not something to be wished upon anyone.

[phantomshow]

You’re also assuming.

[Oh he knows. Ren has been well informed of what to expect, Akechi was keen on explaining that right away.]

[firstsoldier]

Experience tells me that those who feel absolutely compelled to weigh in with "not every--" or "how do you know if--" tend to think of themselves as exceptions.

Are you claiming to also be an exception to that?

[phantomshow]

So you do know how to ask a question. I was starting to wonder.

[Look it sucks to be on the wrong side of people assuming the worst about you. Ren might be a little sensitive about that.]

And for the record, I haven’t claimed anything. It’s just good sense to question anyone who shows up and asks everyone to volunteer their personal information without explaining why.

[firstsoldier]

You deliberately chose to imply.

It is also good sense, when stranded on a strange planet, surrounded by people going through (presumably; I'll allow) the exact unwelcome afflictions we are, to share any and all available information in order to combat fear and ignorance.

If you were a new arrival and coincidentally were to become the same beast another has, being able to find out who they are and speak to them directly about their experiences so you can be better prepared is not a drawback.

No-one here is, as far as I have heard, enemies of anyone else. We are united in our common circumstances, it benefits all to work together.

[phantomshow]

I implied nothing. All I did was point out a really obvious fallacy in OP’s statement. If you chose to jump to conclusions from what I said, that’s your problem.

[Granted, it was mainly to be a bit of a shit, start a little trouble. But Ren has his reasons.]

How much have you heard, though? Do you know everyone here? You don’t know me. I could be a dangerous, violent criminal for all you know. Some people are really good at lying.

he says, as if he's not a professional murderer. shhh

[firstsoldier]

I see.

[Ren's type has been neatly categorized, and now most of what he ever says, does or writes will be taken with a massive grain of salt.]

It is perhaps a great failing of mine that I choose to believe that even a murderous criminal has common sense and enlightened self-interest.

kinda proving ren’s point tbh

[phantomshow]

Oh I’m sure they’d THINK their self-interest is enlightened.

[He thinks of Okumura, hungry for power and willing to sell off his own daughter to get it. He thinks of Shido, preying on Akechi, using him to assassinate anyone who stood in his way, including Akechi himself. The longer this argument continues, the angrier Ren feels.]

But in my experience, that self-interest is just built on distorted desires.

[firstsoldier]

Perhaps it is. Their motivations and reasons are not for me to speculate in this hypothetical scenario.

We are theorizing on whether or not that enlightened self interest of a murderous criminal, or the delusion therein, would more often than not end in cooperation in our specific circumstances.

[phantomshow]

It wouldn’t.

[Ren’s experience with people like Shido and Okumura has led him to believe they’d be more likely to lie and scheme and manipulate until they’d acquired the upper hand, or simply use brute force toward the same end. He can’t imagine either of them cooperating out of the simple goodness of their hearts.

He’s seen what their hearts look like, after all. There hadn’t been any goodness to find.]

Not unless they had a sudden change of heart. And people like that don’t choose to change their hearts on their own.

[firstsoldier]

[Sephiroth is one of those criminal murdering psychopaths, depending on who's side of the war the speaker is on. It shapes his perspective, and also why he never said anything at all about the goodness of anyone's hearts. He knows better than to throw that particular rock in any glass house.]

I'm curious. It is admittedly a side tangent, but why do you believe these individuals would not work for their own benefit?

Your passion on the subject suggests you have experience in the matter, as I do, but it seems my conclusions are different.

[phantomshow]

[Fair enough. He’d be a hypocrite to keep making statements without providing backup when he’s been so vocal about jumping to conclusions.]

I don’t doubt they would work toward their own benefit. But I don’t believe their ideas about what benefits them line up with what benefits the rest of us. I say that because it’s what I’ve seen. Every rotten adult I came across in the past year abused, deceived, manipulated, and murdered to benefit their own interests, for gaining power and wealth. They hurt a lot of people I care about.

[And him personally, but that’s not really the point.]

People like that won’t look at a disadvantaged group like us and think it’s in their best interest to cooperate for the greater good. They’ll think it’s an opportunity to take power for themselves and trample anyone who gets in their way. The only good they care about is their own.

[firstsoldier]

I see. Your observations line up fairly well with my own, in broad strokes. Perhaps it's a side effect of being more used to dealing with corporate malignancy than anything else that I personally feel most "bad people" can be coerced into doing "good things" in this situation.

This may get wordy. I apologize, I have nothing to do in the evenings but sit and think. Is that acceptable?

if ren ends up making a bond with sephiroth over this i will laugh so much

[phantomshow]

[Sounds like this guy needs a hobby. Or maybe he’s just lonely, if his own thoughts are all he has to fill his time. Regardless, while reading this reply, Ren can’t help thinking of Akechi and their debates about the Phantom Thieves and the nature of justice, in those early months when they were both dancing around who they both really were, before their respective masks shattered.]

Go ahead. I’m listening.

[Reading. Whatever. Ren’s good at paying attention to what other people have to say when they need to talk.]